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Liberty

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Thursday, November 24th 2011, 12:51pm

Was Mahaprabhuji really an Avatar??

with all of the stuff coming out about the inconsistencies in Lila Amrit and all the fabrications that came into every new print edition, i have to ask the question: was Mahaprabhuji really an Avatar? I know I'll probably p*ss a few people off by asking this question, but it really is a question that is now raised in my mind? how much of everything is really true? will we even ever find out? most certainly SM and the disciples will never admit it if everything was complete BS? any thoughts? ?( :?: (???)

falseswamiji

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Thursday, November 24th 2011, 1:07pm

whatever happened long long ago... in a land far far away - who can tell the truth if there is no direct witnesses or trust-able written sources, or some authentic video material...so let's just leave it as it is-- a myth- maybe true, may be not, but if I was making conclusions on the past based on my experiences from the present - i would say I clearly doubt it.

ily

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Thursday, November 24th 2011, 1:31pm

with all of the stuff coming out about the inconsistencies in Lila Amrit and all the fabrications that came into every new print edition, i have to ask the question: was Mahaprabhuji really an Avatar? I know I'll probably p*ss a few people off by asking this question, but it really is a question that is now raised in my mind? how much of everything is really true? will we even ever find out? most certainly SM and the disciples will never admit it if everything was complete BS? any thoughts? ?( :?: (???)
I have never seen any proof of fabrications of new editions of Lila Amrit and I am hearing it over and over again. Liberty: have you seen the proof? Could anyone provide us with that?

Liberty

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Thursday, November 24th 2011, 2:05pm

No, I haven't seen proof, only from what i've read in this forum, but i must say that i trust what is written here, but that's only me and by this i don't mean to sway anybody in any direction, i just feel that for me, i trust this forum

Roman

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Thursday, November 24th 2011, 2:06pm

All those who read the first "Living Light" edition know that it has certain things (like Dev-ji smoking hash - which could explain a lot about his miracles and those who observed them and wrote about them ;) ) and certain things does not have (like mentioning of swAmi who will come to the West to spread the MahaGospel). I don't have the editions. Neither the first one, neither the last one. I am just saying what I know. For me this issue is really not important. I don't believe even in catholic church miracles. But at least I have to give it to them, in most cases they at least thoroughly investigate those so called miracles (even the process itself may be little questionable). We accepted those miracle claims just based on letters in the book (printing press is a miracle here) and descriptions of two orange people who obviously had lot of self-interest in us believing to their miracle stories. What to say more? Is it really important? Does it change anything on what happened, how things were handled?

Liberty

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Thursday, November 24th 2011, 2:08pm

ily, check this previous thread on the inconsistencies in Lila Amrit:
http://beyondorange.org/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=62

ily

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Thursday, November 24th 2011, 3:33pm

All those who read the first "Living Light" edition know that it has certain things (like Dev-ji smoking hash - which could explain a lot about his miracles and those who observed them and wrote about them ;) ) and certain things does not have (like mentioning of swAmi who will come to the West to spread the MahaGospel). I don't have the editions. Neither the first one, neither the last one. I am just saying what I know. For me this issue is really not important. I don't believe even in catholic church miracles. But at least I have to give it to them, in most cases they at least thoroughly investigate those so called miracles (even the process itself may be little questionable). We accepted those miracle claims just based on letters in the book (printing press is a miracle here) and descriptions of two orange people who obviously had lot of self-interest in us believing to their miracle stories. What to say more? Is it really important? Does it change anything on what happened, how things were handled?
Roman, I find your questions supprising a little. People use these arguments, you say about it also and when I ask about proofs you try to undermine my curiosity for proofs suggesting it is not important in general picture. If I ask it means it is important for me, maybe not for you - but it is me who is asking not you. So let me judge what is important for me.
And yes I follow this forum and I see how people repeat same dogmas here and do not make any research in that subject.
Concerning believe I believe everyone on Earth but it doesn't stop me to make a research and stops me to repeat it as my point of view if I do not make research. And I want to have my point of view on that one. So help me or don't.
Your answers remind me the answers on Respekt of y..l followers - we believe, we do not have proofs, but it is enough. And Romas, you being a witness is also kind of proof to me. But I know in that case there can be solid proofs.

And Roman, why another mistracking: "Does it change anything on what happened, how things were handled?". Why you connect my question about book to general things? II would call it undermining through generalization. So y..l people ask the same: are these accusations important if we see big picture how s..i is good?


greetings from sunny coast!

Roman

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Thursday, November 24th 2011, 3:37pm

I didn't mean to offend you. I've just said my opinion, not an advice to you or anybody else. Sorry for misunderstanding.

ily

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Thursday, November 24th 2011, 3:42pm

I didn't mean to offend you. I've just said my opinion, not an advice to you or anybody else. Sorry for misunderstanding.
I do not feel like but thank you for understanding. I didnt mean to be harsh in words also.

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Thursday, November 24th 2011, 4:06pm

still, it's a good question, it's the thing that nobody even questions at the beginning, did we question it at the beginning or we just acepted it, more or less we accepted it, even for Jesus or Rama or Krishna; certainly, they represent a certain values, embodiments of divine wisdom and virtue etc..but still, what is the real effect, that is the question...I don't negate here anything, even from the literature-point of view, the text can be examined as sort of examples of human endeavour (though some are divinely inspired as it is said,,I don't know anything about that)...but the thing is that finally, there is this One Person that is erected and than those Person's begin to represent the Truth, not just as textual wisdom that is inscribed in their supposed words, but also visual presentifications, pictures etc...did Krishna really look like that, on the pictures?, was he historical figure? who knows...but we believe though we don't know..it's a tough decision,,what can you do, if you are a part of a certain culture, we just accept and belive, everybody does it...we believe more or less in jesus also..what about him...do we really refer to the real jesus in our heads and prayers?...I am just asking myself, but for the true believer even this questions are forbidden, the belief is axiomatic, beleif is not a belief if you have doubts..

.we just carry through generations and generations the symbolic legacy of religious identity or some other identities and we continue to erect and stand behind some sort of (version) of aTruth, and historically, it meant to kill the infidels also,,but those were the more or less monotheistic religions (which doesn't mean that polytheistic version is better or solves anything), here, it's judaism, christianity and islam,,those 3 brothers are all the time in their hairs, fighting for the Abrahamic legacy...vasihanavas are 'fighting' with shivaist's etc---in fact it's a mess, the moment you have a one founder or one god, you go for the ride against some other god or founder:), is this spirituality? and what is spirituality anyway? mere set of techniques? or combination of both, techniques and faith? this takes whole history on our shoulders with its weight...who can tell us, give us any guarantee...and we want to believe as we want to have a sort of sense and meaning, and the belief is much appropriate...

we believe because others beleive, and we automatically take things as "they are"? In case of Y---l, I would say that many people beleived and believe Sw., he represents the idea and truth right now, his words count for people, those who want to believe, you cannot take things without taking the whole package, and if I remeber myself, I was somehow taking Sw. as a certain authority on yogic matters (which still I do not make any assessment of the nature or the position that he has or how competent he is; I do not know that, I just believed, projected onto him a certain ideal, value, yogic value in principle which in this case coincided with his persona, for the time being, but I also saw it was my own belief and projection, my own expectation and my own investment, I was the 'creator' of it, though I previously accepted to follow the guidelines), so in this sense, if I accepted Sw. it's natural to accept the whole lineage, like your family, you can add still jesus if you want or any other figure which is appealing to you and there you can find many guys on the wall, sooner or later:)...How can we know and whom to believe? I guess there is no guarantee, but if thousands believe it must be true, right?

Regarding Mahaprabhuji, who knows? There is a certain book, where one of the older devotee from India did have a corresponedence with Sw. about his visions with mahaprabhuji etc...but how to know, is it true, and even if it is,,what to do?,,,we could analyse what is said in the book, about the encounters or the visions, and they are also really unusual, also in some sense trivial..neither you can prove nor disprove this, it was a part of somebody's particular experience and maybe only meaningful to him.

More interesting inforamtion for me was, when I read, on the previous forum, that G. wasn't at the time of Maha...ji's passing at the ashram, and that even Mah..ji kicked him out from ashram or something like that, don't know who wrote that, maybe Ivan as I remember, and it was stated that L.Amrit was a G.'s version of a holy book, probably implying that he was not the 'chosen' one, but that it was his thing to do...don't know...here we would need some more facts:)

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Thursday, November 24th 2011, 4:10pm

I think Ivan may have some answers to the really factual issues here, but I don't know.

falseswamiji

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Thursday, November 24th 2011, 10:29pm

It would be good to confirm some facts- maybe by copy pasting first and last version of lila amrit ( important parts) side by side and underlining differences. It would be good because it would show inconsistencies and manipulations . It could help some people still in yidl to make first steps toward "reasonable doubts " and eventually find courage to believe that other manipulations and sexual abuse are REAL.

I think we have one of the first editions, Veritas or Truthseeker , one of them posted he has it on the old forum .
And Ivan could do the work of comparing versions if he had time to do it . Or ily could do it herself (himself?) .
I think it is the best for Ily to write private message to Ivan. He knows the knowledge.

Roman

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Thursday, November 24th 2011, 11:14pm

You are getting into copyright infringement with this. Some lawyers around to advise?

Tony

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Friday, November 25th 2011, 1:45am

Read on fair use exception.

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 17 U.S.C. § 106 and 17 U.S.C. § 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include:
  1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
  2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
  3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
  4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

ily

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Friday, November 25th 2011, 12:47pm

It would be good to confirm some facts- maybe by copy pasting first and last version of lila amrit ( important parts) side by side and underlining differences. It would be good because it would show inconsistencies and manipulations . It could help some people still in yidl to make first steps toward "reasonable doubts " and eventually find courage to believe that other manipulations and sexual abuse are REAL.

I think we have one of the first editions, Veritas or Truthseeker , one of them posted he has it on the old forum .
And Ivan could do the work of comparing versions if he had time to do it . Or ily could do it herself (himself?) .
I think it is the best for Ily to write private message to Ivan. He knows the knowledge.
I have old version but my new one is in different country now..I will get it in a month or so.